Curse

Mormegil · May 29, 2005, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Indeed...reading comprehension is your friend too, since I agree with Xellos on the UAS but I don't on the life span of this game (which was a part of his post, so I think I'm not OT).

Lazarous · May 29, 2005, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Read his post again.

Mormegil · May 29, 2005, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

It's a nice plan you had, playing the guilt card on this thread, but look at it this way, you'd have to cut the community in two, therefore each community is smaller. And since each community is seperate, yet has it's own respective and unpartable qualities, it forces players to spend time in either both communities or just one. This makes the game less replayable. PVE is already a joke for replayability, and PVP doesn't have enough scenarios to make it fun, coupled with the fact that there is only 2 ladders, makes Guilds and good teams the only desire in PVP community, which makes casual players even more screwed. All in all, it rips apart the community slowly, because the game isn't even near perfect yet in neither aspect, therefore by ripping them apart your just giving it a short boost of happiness before it dies even faster.

This is what I'm talking about. I lost the following post from Xellos because I was writing mine.

Lazarous · May 29, 2005, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Yup, read that again.

Notice something about how he equates the lifespan of the game to something else being argued in this thread? No?

Redfang · May 29, 2005, 07:56 PM // 19:56

No one is forcing PvPers to do anything. You knew how the game is played when you bought it. Now evidently you have taken a beatdown in the arena and you want an "I win" button lol. If you want to be competitive, compete. Get the skills you want. No one is stopping you.

FelineFury · May 29, 2005, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Mormegil's post is amusing. You do realize that xellos is arguing against the UAS dual ladder system proposed by the op?

Reading comprehension. It's your friend.

The world isn't all black and white. There are different layers of suggestive comprehention which are percived by everyone in different manners. In other words 2 people car read 2 different things and post 2 thing that are equally different and equally valid.

Mormegil · May 29, 2005, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

because the game isn't even near perfect yet in neither aspect, therefore ... just giving it a short boost of happiness before it dies even faster.

See? That was the part I was referring to.

Xellos · May 29, 2005, 08:00 PM // 20:00

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A valid concern, Xellos, but I think the game community will actually be stronger because of it.

I gladly welcome any support/evidence that can prove what you say is true. This is a forum, both sides should have equal chance to prove their case.

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What i really meant is i understand the game is asking you to get the skills and that you think it's a grind. The suggestion to implement UAS is interresting and will be considered along with the cons. The breaking of PvP into pieces is a good idea but it might cause less population available to PvPers of either group and would require additional ressources.

That's only the tip of the iceberg, but the main idea is somewhat scratched, and is why I believe this is a bad move.

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Is that a requirement for responding? ;p

If you want to refer to me the way you did, yes. Otherwise, I'd treat you as a ESL student. y0 [email protected]

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PvE has its own problems, but why should they drag down PvP as well?

That is actually the opposite. Currently, PVE keeps PVP alive. There are disadvantages to this, but PVE intertwined with PVP actually provides more benefits in its current state. You just have to look ahead and see what would happen if it did split.

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By seperating the game in two you have more options to make each part better, because you don't have to deal with the various feedback loops inherent in a combined system.

Good point, but if you split them right now, the player base would eat you up before you could fix anything. Once you split them, they will be that much more focused on their desired game, and therefore be even more picky. Stuff like balance, content, etc etc comes into play. At this point, Anet can barely do new content, expansion, and fixing bugs. Splitting would completely kill their workers.

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You could add all sorts of pvp arenas that have wildly different rulesets and balance them against a set standard of items/runes/skills, not worrying whether certain players would feel left out because they don't have all the goodies they need.

And that is work that now needs to be IMMEDIATELY done rather then put til later because of the convienience of the merged systems. This would create much more workloads, less quality in their work, and might even force a pay to play. You have to look at this from a omniscient view, otherwise, your view is bound to be flawed in a major way. Theories will never be perfect, but the way most people try to look at things has enough holes to sink a continent.

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Similarly for pve, in that you could change balance for the zones independant of how it would possibly affect the pvp portion of the game.

Same as above.

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Ah, don't you worry guys.

I also like how people said that about stuff like national security, and then 9/11 happened. Awareness isn't worrying. Awareness is awareness. Choose to be ignorant if you wish, but don't encourage it.

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Whiners like Xellos were there even when Diablo 2 was out, claiming "the game will have a very short life span because it's repetitive and too similar to the first one".

Do you even know why Diablo 2 lives? It's because of runs and farming. It is to this day, known as the farmers game. Is Diablo 2 ever mentioned as a fun PVP game? Or even fun PVE game? Hell no. It's about leveling, getting rare items from pindleskin, and making your god damn character godly. Back then, people didn't realize it got old, but you always saw people who quit and came back. The fluxating market done by SOJs also contributed to the lifespan of Diablo 2. The sheer amount of elites and such was fun enough for those who just liked to collect and make their character uber compared to everyone else. In short, it's just like how rich kids like to pose with their cool clothes and equipment, but don't take part in the fun. Their fun comes from their material status. And that's their choice. People have evolved past that. Obviously you don't even have a clue what Diablo 2 was about.

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Predicting the future with that surprising confidence sounds a bit arrogant to me.

Glad you noticed.

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You say this game is doomed, it will not last much, basing your "curses" on no impartial analysis of it.

No, I did not. I said splitting the game would shorten it's lifespan. Shorten can go from anywhere from the game going from 50 years to 49 years, to 50 years to 5 seconds. Why must you always put words into my mouth? Are you not capable of reading without assuming on variables?

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The game is having an astonishing success everywhere btw, I'm sorry to ruin your visceral pessimism.

That statement is an opinion. On many aspects it is a success, but on many aspects, it just became hell for some people.

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This is heavy criticism, I hope you dont take that as an offense. Cheers.

No it isn't, this isn't even criticism. It's people who haven't even played the game enough argueing against me.

AirOnG · May 29, 2005, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfang

No one is forcing PvPers to do anything. You knew how the game is played when you bought it. Now evidently you have taken a beatdown in the arena and you want an "I win" button lol. If you want to be competitive, compete. Get the skills you want. No one is stopping you.

It's not an "I win" button. It's a "level playing field" button. Farming for runes and abilities takes absolutely no skill and is simply a timesink. It adds absolutely nothing to the competitive aspect of the game.

Lazarous · May 29, 2005, 08:01 PM // 20:01

So him arguing that UAS would kill the game faster is doomsaying that the game is going to die regardless? You do realize games have finite lifespans?

Shrug, feel free to use people who are supporting your arguments as dart boards, makes the opposing side easier.

Mormegil · May 29, 2005, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

No it isn't, this isn't even criticism. It's people who haven't even played the game enough argueing against me.

So I guess you're prophet and judge in the same person. Cool!

/bows

Lazarous · May 29, 2005, 08:07 PM // 20:07

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If you want to refer to me the way you did, yes. Otherwise, I'd treat you as a ESL student. y0 [email protected]

You're really losing me here. You post an idea in a thread, and when i respond directly to that idea it makes me an esl student?

Shrug, i'll not distract your little flamewar with mormegil.

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And that is work that now needs to be IMMEDIATELY done rather then put til later because of the convienience of the merged systems. This would create much more workloads, less quality in their work, and might even force a pay to play. You have to look at this from a omniscient view, otherwise, your view is bound to be flawed in a major way. Theories will never be perfect, but the way most people try to look at things has enough holes to sink a continent.

This is not necessarily true. The 'convenience' of the merged systems is that it provides content where there is none by artificially linking the two systems together. If you remove the grind inherent in pve gameplay to get the runes, are you really kililng anything bad? Do people point to that aspect of gameplay and say 'yes, this is what i love about this game'? If anything, this gameplay gives bad impressions to everyone forced to do it, thus making the gameplay 'added' detrimental to the games overall lifespan.

Yes i agree that pvp arenas need a serious overhaul and a lot more love than they're seeing. While the systems are linked, it also means that even if they did get an overhaul you'd need to spend hundreds of hours getting to a point where you can play in them competitively.

Mormegil · May 29, 2005, 08:10 PM // 20:10

No, please, I hate flame wars.
The only thing I dont like about Xellos is that his post are neither constructive nor convincing. He masks poor arguments with his subtle aggressivity, thats what I think. I also think he's smart enough not to overdo it and not to go beyond a polite discussion.

Bamelin · May 29, 2005, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by eventhorizen

The suggestions are split the playerbase into PvE or PvP (by adding UAS to PvP only builds), split the player base into PvP only competitions with all skills etc, and a PvE where you need to 'grind' your character out then fight.

If you do that you kill the PvE aspect of the game, because people will reach level 20, realise its a competitive PvP game but they cant access competitive pvp, realise its not your average social mmorpg like WoW or Eve bin their PvE and go get maxed out pvp only chars.

Naturally this is what all PvE'ers fear. Two seperate ladders, one with UAS one without would create this situation:

The non UAS ladder would be a barren wasteland.

I think though that PROVES our (UAS PvP) point. People want a lvl playing field. People do not want to participate in a PvP environment where equipment and time played is a measure of success. We want to play where player skill is the deciding factor. UAS accomplishes this. This is the reason a UAS ladder would "kill" an RPG ladder. As EventHorizon said people will:

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If you do that you kill the PvE aspect of the game, because people will reach level 20, realise its a competitive PvP game but they cant access competitive pvp, realise its not your average social mmorpg like WoW or Eve bin their PvE and go get maxed out pvp only chars.

Thing is EventHorizon people have ALREADY realized "its a competitive PvP and they can't access competitive PvP".

This is why the PvP versus PvE argument is still raging across GW fan forums.

Redfang · May 29, 2005, 08:25 PM // 20:25

People crack me up.

+ You can get to max level in a weekend.
+ You can have two professions, and use skills from both.
+ You can respec your character on a whim.
+ You can change your secondary profession by doing a quest. And then change it again and again.
+ You can steal skills from mobs.
+ Money comes easy and anyone can have great weapons and armor with minimal effort.
+ You have henchmen to solo with.
+ The game will outright give you a PvP character.
+ They balance out the teams in PvP so you aren't outnumbered or taken by surprise.

And yet you have people say "it's too haaaaaard. It's not faaaaaaair. It's a griiiiind." You have got to be freakin kidding me?? I have played most of the major MMOs and I have to say anyone who claims these things could never make it out of the noobie yard in any of them.

AirOnG · May 29, 2005, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfang

People crack me up.

+ You can get to max level in a weekend.
+ You can have two professions, and use skills from both.
+ You can respec your character on a whim.
+ You can change your secondary profession by doing a quest. And then change it again and again.
+ You can steal skills from mobs.
+ Money comes easy and anyone can have great weapons and armor with minimal effort.
+ You have henchmen to solo with.
+ The game will outright give you a PvP character.
+ They balance out the teams in PvP so you aren't outnumbered or taken by surprise.

And yet you have people say "it's too haaaaaard. It's not faaaaaaair. It's a griiiiind." You have got to be freakin kidding me?? I have played most of the major MMOs and I have to say anyone who claims these things could never make it out of the noobie yard in any of them.

Redfang, it's extremely easy to defeat the PvE aspect of the game and to grind. The bone of contention is it is a significant and massive and completely pointless and boring timesink before you can play PvP competitively on a level playing field.

Edit: I take back that flame comment ^^

Mormegil · May 29, 2005, 08:57 PM // 20:57

For different reasons, I agree with Xellos and others on the UAS matter: making the search for elite skills more compelling should be enough for me. Annoying people with random spawn bosses and alike is pointless.

Boris_714 · May 29, 2005, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Why would we ever want the company to spend its time and effort just to support 2% of the people wanting UAS.
I'm sure all of the rest of us want their resources spent on developing the wonderful game that we have now instead of wasting it on a few who cant get all the perks at once.
Personally, I care less about PvP,but since it is a part of this game I expect it to be developed too, But to add on new section at the expense of the real game for a few people??? Too bad go play somewhere else. No offense.

Willow · May 29, 2005, 11:24 PM // 23:24

To reply to the original poster, I'm a hardcore PvEr. And I'm NOT against any UAS ladder that wouldn't affect me.

(I don't know too much about how the Hall of Heroes works or whatever... but if it can effect PvE, than it should only be effected by PvE. But that's not what the subject line of this thread at least is talking about.)

I'm all for people who don't want to play PvE not having too. I've yet to see anyone give a compelling argument as to why someone else needs to have a bad time. There will be people who genuinely want to play PvE- and those are the people I'd rather group with.

Willow · May 29, 2005, 11:25 PM // 23:25

And to clarify: I think what most PvErs are against is UAS ladders that WOULD effect them. I think the hard part is just making such a ladder. Or maybe not. I don't understand all the PvP/PvE interactions.